A conversation with Dan Burgess, Director, Governor's Energy Office, State of Maine.
Dan Burgess is the Director of the Governor’s Energy Office for the State of Maine, and he's had a robust career in energy policy, first in Massachusetts then coming back home to Maine.
Dan was part of our online forum about offshore wind, Off Shore Wind from the UK to Maine, in February 2021. You can watch that on our YouTube Channel
Our conversation was recorded in January 2024.
KATE DICKERSON, HOST:
Welcome to the Maine Science Podcast. I'm Kate Dickerson. Today's episode is a conversation I had with Dan Burgess, who is the Director of the Governor's Energy Office for the state of Maine.
Dan grew up on a farm in Central Maine and has spent much of his professional focus on energy policy. I really enjoyed talking with Dan and having the opportunity to talk just a little bit about energy policy brought me back to the work I did earlier in my career. I hope you enjoy our conversation as much as I did.
Today's episode of the Maine Science Podcast is brought to you by Bangor Savings Bank, committed to supporting scientific exploration and discovery in Maine.
DICKERSON: Dan, welcome to the Maine Science Podcast. I am delighted to have you. We got to know each other a little bit during the COVID pandemic, thanks to an online webinar we did about offshore wind. One of the reasons I wanted to talk to you is because you have such an interesting background of applying science from the perspective of someone who didn't actually pursue a degree in that. So I was hoping you could, before we dive into your actual work right now in Maine, if you could talk about your background - I know you got a degree in business administration - and how you ended up pursuing energy work.
BURGESS: Yeah, Kate, thanks so much for having me on. So I'm originally from Central Maine, and I grew up on a small dairy farm in Central Maine. We had 75, 100 dairy cows, and I grew up with a love for the outdoors. I grew up kind of working on the farm and ultimately, I went to the University of Maine-Orono, pursued a business degree, spent some time in the private sector after college, and then ultimately wanted to be involved in public service. And so I took my career, I was living in the Boston area, took my career to public service and spent eight years in the Energy and Environmental Affairs offices in Massachusetts, and then had the opportunity to move back to Maine in 2019, and I've been in this role since 2019.
DICKERSON: Excellent. So why energy and environmental in particular? I ask because it's first of all, it's all encompassing, right? I mean, much like I can make almost everything about science, I can also make almost about energy and the environment, but it's where I landed before I started doing this work. So I'm always curious how different people get there with different backgrounds. And like I said, it's not intuitively obvious that business puts you in that pathway. So I'm curious, what was it about that that got you interested?
BURGESS: I think growing up on a farm, we were really raised with a love for the outdoors and were taught values of leaving things better than you found it. And for me, my interest in the policy world related to energy was about the challenge of our day - of climate change - and really looking at how our energy is created, how our energy is used, and what investments can be made to both advance climate change, but also grow our economy at the same time. And so with those values, with a love for the outdoors, with both the challenge and opportunity that climate change presented, the opportunity to work in state government and on policy was one that really interested me. And I think it's that outdoors and, like you said, science can mean a lot of things, but really that commitment which led me to this work.
DICKERSON: So you now head up the Governor's Energy Office, which I think is fantastic that we have one - I'm not actually sure every state has an energy office. Because it's the area where I worked and doing policy stuff before I started doing public science, I've kept tabs on much of what happens in coming out of the Governor's Energy Office. I know offshore wind has been a continuous focus of your office. I'm going to imagine solar is in there as well, although most people probably think of solar more tied to rebates from...
BURGESS: ...Efficiency Maine has rebates.
DICKERSON: Efficiency Maine, thank you, sorry. I think most people probably think of Efficiency Maine rather than the energy office, but you know, heat pumps and all of those things. So I'm curious how big you feel like your portfolio is, meaning, is it unmanageable, is it inspiring? What else does it include, besides what I've mentioned? And I think it's fairly large. How do you break it down so that it's manageable, not just for you, but for the rest of us to understand?
BURGESS: Well, so first of all, every state does have an energy office. They all look a little bit different. Some are, you know, within the governor's office like ours is here in Maine. Others are in economic development offices, and then others are their own departments. And so actually, we spend a lot of time talking with one another, my counterparts, and other states about the challenges that we have and our priorities. And I think the work of the energy office in Maine, and really across the region, it's about, you know, ensuring affordability of energy, while also moving forward with the decarbonization of our energy grid and also the end uses of that. And so the work really kind of stems from that, creating kind of a cleaner, more affordable, more resilient energy future.
And so when you think about what that entails, we're really looking at the affordability lens on these items, but (1), how is our electricity and our energy produced? Right now Maine has the good fortune of having a large amount of clean energy resources located in Maine, but we're a part of a regional electric grid. And so we share the electric grid with the other New England states. And as a region, we are heavily reliant on natural gas to produce our electricity. So more than 50% of our electricity comes from natural gas in the region. And so that sets the price of our electricity as a region. And so Maine and other states have really been focused on how do we bring on new, clean, renewable resources to help us diversify our electricity generation and how our energy is produced. You know, I think Maine people have experienced the volatility of the last few years from world events and the pandemic related to our electricity bills and energy bills.
And really that focus on building and securing kind of new resources in the region is something that we're spending a lot of time on. And that could be future offshore wind, onshore wind, solar, highly efficient biomass. Those types of generation projects are ones that I think can deliver less volatility when it comes to prices, but can be better for the environment. And that can also really be good for Maine's economic future by putting people to work, building and maintaining these projects.
DICKERSON: Do you find that you have the most conversations with other New England states or is it more, I don't want to say pick and choose, but I know that, for example, and I don't mean to harp on offshore wind, it's just an area I've been interested in for a really long time. I know it's pretty significant off of New York and also on the West Coast. So do you kind of talk to the other energy offices based on the specific technology or resource, or are you more aligned with New England and then just pop out occasionally?
BURGESS: Yeah, I think there's a natural alignment with New England, given that we do share the electric grid that we talked about. We have a number of similarities on the heating side, we're a cold weather region. And so there's a lot of overlap and opportunities for natural discussions with New England.
I think it really depends on the topic. We are talking to West Coast states about floating offshore wind. I'm also in conversations with Minnesota on their efficiency programs, or Tennessee on their electric vehicle work, and really kind of comparing what has worked, what are the best practices, how can we work together.
So it's exciting to be able to have those conversations. There's an unprecedented opportunity from the federal government with the Inflation Reduction Act and all of the funding that is coming to states from that. And so that's everything from rebates for efficiency and weatherization and heat pumps to new tax credits available to consumers and businesses, to workforce and contractor training opportunities. And so we're spending a lot of time hearing from one another, talking to the federal government, comparing notes and working together to share what best practices we all have.
DICKERSON: I know in 2021 a memorandum of understanding was signed with the UK to develop wind. How about Canada and Atlantic Canada? Is that another opportunity where, rather than reinventing the wheel, there could be a lot of collaboration?
BURGESS: Yeah. So the opportunity, I think, Europe is clearly a leader in offshore wind. And we've spent a lot of time talking with them, reading, learning from them about how they've integrated that into their energy system, but also into their economy. With the UK, also countries like Denmark or Norway are doing really a lot of work in this space. Clearly, we're looking at what's happening to the south of us with offshore wind, whether you mentioned Massachusetts and New York and Connecticut, Rhode Island, a lot of lessons learned and opportunities for coordination there. And then I think, as you mentioned, the opportunity with the provincial governments around us.
I think there's been discussions and projects around bringing hydro down into the region from our north. There's also, you're seeing provinces begin to do some of their own offshore wind planning. You know, we're share borders with Canada in these places, and oftentimes our energy systems are connected and power does flow both ways. So it is an opportunity to look at how do we coordinate together on everything, but also offshore wind.
DICKERSON: Do you think that the hardest nut to crack with regards to energy moving to a renewable for Maine in particular is the transportation piece?
BURGESS: You mean transportation of electric vehicles and things like that or the transportation of fuels or otherwise?
DICKERSON: Oh, what a good question. I was thinking the vehicles. Back when I was doing policy work, the line we always had was we were almost 80% of our homes were heated with heating oil, and now we're down to 60-something, which is still gigantically large compared to a lot of states, but a huge reduction in 12 years time. Vast changes are happening, but I think because Maine is such a large rural state, the rest of New England can fit in what we've got, individual transportation or trucks and buses always seems to me like really hard to wrap your head around how we're going to make that transition work. And I'm just curious if you think that that is also true?
BURGESS: I think it's definitely, you know, the largest piece of our emissions come from transportation. So the movement of goods, but also the movement of individuals and as a large rural state, as you mentioned, Kate, so we're dependent on vehicles to move us around and to power our economy. I mean, I think you also mentioned the transition that we're seeing related to the heating sector. So you're right, Maine is the most home heating oil reliant state in the country. We are now at 56% of our homes reliant on home heating oil to heat their homes. And so we've gone from, like you said, kind of 70, 80%. In the last five years, we've seen a 10% reduction in that home heating oil reliance number. And so this move towards more efficient technologies, air source heat pumps, we are leading the country in adoption of air source heat pumps. So you're seeing as a result of programs and policies but also the market and Maine people wanting to also kind of choose that. They're choosing a more efficient, more advanced technology. As the technology, I mean, around heat pumps has gotten better, people are choosing that. And so I think the technology advancement and market adoption has really been exciting to see on the heating side.
And I think the same can begin to be said or can be said. I think how we're producing our electricity, right? We were going from these large centralized power plants that were built in the ‘50s and ‘60s to this more decentralized looking network where those plants are retiring. We are building distributed generation, so smaller solar, wind, biomass projects in different areas. So that technology is advancing. And so I think we're clearly seeing more interest, more support from the federal government around building out the electric vehicle charging network and also seeing more electric vehicles on the road.
And so I think you're kind of seeing that technology adoption that we've seen in other forms of energy kind of move forward in transportation as well.
DICKERSON: Has there been a part of the transformation to renewables that you've been surprised about that maybe you thought would take longer or has taken longer than you thought it would? I've been following, back when I did this work, back when we called it alternative energy, right? So this has been a long time passion of mine. And I've never quite figured out how different things catch on and they don't. And I'm just curious if there's been things that you have found surprisingly interesting one way or the other.
BURGESS: That's a great question. I'm always learning in this job, technologies are changing, markets are changing. I think the impacts of climate change that we're seeing is, I guess, sobering, right? Like some of the increased storms, weather events, the things that I think could be attributed to a change in climate are beginning to see those. I also am seeing technology cost declines in all the sectors that we talked about, whether it's generation or heating or transportation, really seeing the cost declines, whether it's solar or wind. Right now, we're seeing supply chain and inflation issues on some of these projects and technologies, but really I think the cost declines are a real reason for optimism.
I think we need to, as we're building these new industries and technologies, need to think about siting local conversations around that, but then also economic development or workforce pieces of it. We are in our office and coordination with other state agencies, like the Department of Labor and the Community College System, the University, working on training folks that are needed to assist with this and build this transition, whether it's electricians or weatherization workers and others. There really are significant opportunities there. And I think as we're looking at this, as we're building this industry and building the energy future, we're going to need a workforce to do that. I think it's been really exciting to see some of the results from that.
DICKERSON: I'm glad you mentioned your office and what you're looking at. I wanted to take a step back and maybe you could give us, because I realize we dove right into the policy energy stuff - it would be really cool if you could give me a breakdown of how your office works. Like, it's not a one man show. I assume it's not a five person show. I imagine that there's all sorts of different types of backgrounds that you need to do this work really effectively. So if you could just give us kind of a broad stroke of how the energy office works in Maine, that would be really great.
BURGESS: So we are the energy office in Maine, the Governor's Energy Office, the primary policy and advisor to the Governor and Maine on energy. And so we have a great team in our office that are focused on a whole number of different issues. We work really closely with the Governor's Office of Policy Innovation in the future, which coordinates a number of different issues, including the work of the Maine Climate Council. So we work very closely with that office.
And in Maine, as we've discussed a little bit, there's also an organization called the Efficiency Maine Trust, which delivers programming related to energy efficiency and others. There's a Utilities Commission, which regulates our utilities, both gas and electric and water utilities. And then we have the Office of the Public Advocate, who works to represent rate payers before the Commission and other settings. And then there's the Maine State Housing Authority, which runs programming related to low-income housing, but also kind of low-income weatherization and LIHEAP. So there's a number of different entities that are in the energy, climate, space, and we work with those entities and before them, before the Commission, otherwise, to do our work.
And so we're focused on the generation side. We are also responsible for putting forward an energy plan. We're undertaking an analysis right now about what our energy system will look like between now and 2040, and what steps we need to do that in alignment with the climate plan. But we're doing studies and analysis of the current energy markets, technologies, otherwise, about how to meet those targets. And at the same time, on the heating demand side, we're working with Efficiency Maine and others on programming. We do weekly surveys of fuel prices, particularly during the winter season, to inform consumers. We are working to take advantage of and apply for all the federal funding that's available. Again, that could be efficiency rebates and others, grid resilience, grid reliability opportunities, and funding opportunities there. So it's a whole wide swath of work with a number of different partners that we're involved in at the Energy Office.
DICKERSON: So the Maine Housing one is the only one that might catch people's ear is like, huh, I didn't know about that one. Is that consistent with other energy offices, or is that more likely to be found in New England just because our housing stock is so much older?
BURGESS: Weatherization Assistance Program is a federal program that comes through the US. Department of Energy, and then the low-income eating assistance program known as LIHEAP comes through the federal DHHS. It really depends on other states. Some states have their energy office running the Weatherization Assistance Program. Others have the Housing Finance Agency like we do here in Maine that's doing that work, so it really depends on each jurisdiction. I'd say it's very common, in my experience, that whoever's running the program works really closely with the Community Action Agencies to implement them, and that's what's happening here. Maine Housing is kind of taking those, applying for and receiving the Weatherization Assistance Program funds, but then working locally with the Community Action Agencies to implement them.
DICKERSON: It's a really cool mix of other agencies and offices that you work with, and it provides some really interesting opportunities to get people at a table that otherwise wouldn't talk to each other, and I would imagine finding solutions and ideas that you wouldn't have otherwise.
BURGESS: Yeah, I mean, I think you also asked about kind of what type of backgrounds and experience our team has. You know, people with policy backgrounds, environmental science degrees, we've hired consultants and engineers to help us with studies. We have economists that are looking at kind of large data sets and doing that type of work. And then, like you said, the thing about energy is it really touches everyone, right? We're all using energy in our day-to-day lives, and so everyone is impacted. And that means you get to have conversations with a wide variety of people interested in the topic. And we're always learning and learning from not only the latest technologies, but also lived experiences and how people are kind of experiencing energy day to day.
DICKERSON: Okay, so now I am going to put you on the spot. Do you think there's any particular area of energy innovation or policy in which Maine can truly kind of stake their claim that they're leading the country on?
BURGESS: I think there's a whole lot of them. I'm happy to do that. I mean, I think we've got a long history of leading in the forest products industry and particular overlaps with energy there, whether it's the timber HP in Madison where they're doing wood-based insulation. I got an opportunity to be at the opening of that. You know, it's really exciting to see what companies like that are doing. You're seeing the same in aerospace and the potential for bio-based fuels or other technologies to support that industry. And so I think there's long examples of that. And then I think the University and the work in Maine on floating offshore wind, clearly a leader in that space. And, you know, the governor signed really significant legislation to advance floating offshore wind in the Gulf of Maine between now and 2040.
So our office is busy designing and working on implementing the offshore wind roadmap that we've been working on over the last couple of years. Clearly that needs to be done in close coordination with the folks that are out on the water and the fishing industry now to make sure that we're reducing impacts or have those impacts considered and known as we go through the process, which I think we've sought to do and will continue to do. And also, you know, our office using funds from the governor's Maine Jobs and Recovery plan just awarded new funding for a handful of clean tech incubators across the state.
So we have the Roux Institute at Northeastern is going to be running a clean tech incubation, looking at opportunities in clean technology space, particularly focused on big data and AI. Dirigo Labs with the Central Maine Growth Council in Waterville received a grant from us where they're going to be running an entrepreneur residence program in the Waterville area focused on clean tech. And then CEI, Coastal Enterprises, will be doing business support for energy efficiency companies.
And so I think each of these show the real opportunity for clean tech innovation and with the way that you're seeing these really major national investments in manufacturing and innovation. I think it’s an exciting time for Maine to be making these investments and doing this as it's happening across the country too.
DICKERSON: I couldn't agree more. I think TimberHP is one of the coolest companies to come around in a really long time. And I actually was lucky enough yesterday, I got to do a field trip to the College of the Atlantic and we saw one of the new buildings going up and we got to see the fill. It was just...
BURGESS: ...Pretty great, right?
DICKERSON: It was... I've known Matt O'Malia for a while, and so to kind of actually see the physical manifestation of what they've been working on was really, really cool.
BURGESS: Yeah, it's pretty exciting.
DICKERSON: It's really exciting. It's such a great way to build off an incredibly knowledgeable sector in Maine in all new ways. Forestry is alive and well; we haven't really talked about that much, but there's some really innovative, all new ways that people are using forest bio-products and forest products. And so to have an honest-to-god example that you can hold in your hand is pretty cool.
BURGESS: Yeah, it's pretty exciting. Pretty great to see that progress. So think about all the other things happening at the University of Maine system as well with the 3D printing, the, again, I mentioned the floating wind, but there's a ton of innovation in the clean tech, climate tech space that it's great to see.
DICKERSON: All right, I can't let you go without finding out why your family farm transitioned from cows to Christmas trees.
BURGESS: Yeah. So my parents had been farming since kind of the mid-70s and then later in the 90s when they ultimately made the decision that they, I think, were ready to be done, right? The price of milk dropped a little bit, and I think that they was either kind of get bigger or go organic, and I think ultimately they decided to switch, so they planted Christmas trees. We also do, at that time, we're doing squash and pumpkins. Now it's just kind of Christmas trees and haying in the summers. And so it's been a fun transition, and the farm is still active, and they just wrapped up a great season there. So it's been fun to see the land used in different ways.
DICKERSON: Do you like going back and seeing it filled with Christmas trees as opposed to cows?
BURGESS: Well, we are fortunate to be able to have a few cows every summer, some pigs, and we have chickens there. And so it's definitely different. It's not the kind of 24-7 dairy farm operation. And so we have very fond memories of growing up there and kind of working on the farm. And I have two young kids, and so it's been fun to have them helping out around the farm, whether it's hanging or with the Christmas trees. It's been great. Definitely missed parts of the farm, but it's been great to kind of expose them to the way the farm operates now.
DICKERSON: That's excellent. I said that was going to be my last question, but I do have one more. I'm going to just make an assumption here that you were totally happy to get back to Maine. I'm curious what it felt like to be a Mainer who went to Massachusetts as opposed to the other way around.
BURGESS: Yeah, I'm thrilled to be back in Maine. I had a great experience in Massachusetts, and I had the opportunity to work in both a Democratic administration and a Republican administration. I want to be in public service, and I want to really enjoy my time in state government. But the opportunity to move home and be closer to family and to do this work in Maine has just been terrific. It's been a great transition. Because of the way the energy system works, it means we have to work regionally and work together. I'm still talking to former colleagues and others in both Massachusetts and other states often. It's been a great experience.
DICKERSON: That's great. I really appreciate your time. I know this is not your typical Friday morning conversation. I hope that making you talk about yourself and your work and your background is something you get to do often, but maybe not every Friday. I really appreciate this. Like I said, this was the area of work I did before I got into public science. I have a soft place in my heart for it and have been following it for a long time. And I've been really impressed and happy with what Maine as a state has done and the policy advances that have been made. And I credit that to a lot of the work you and your office has done, so I appreciate it.
BURGESS: Well, thanks, Kate. I appreciate the conversation and your interest and happy to be on, and yeah, thanks for having me.
DICKERSON: Thanks for listening to the Maine Science Podcast. Make sure you never miss an episode by subscribing on your podcast platform of choice. And please leave a rating and review. It will help more people find us and help spread the word about some of the remarkable people doing science in Maine.
The Maine Science Podcast is recorded at Discovery Studios at the Maine Discovery Museum in Bangor, Maine. Maine Science Podcast is executive produced and hosted by me, Kate Dickerson, and edited and produced by Scott Loiselle.
The Discover Maine theme was composed and performed by Nick Parker.
Transcript provided by Maine Discovery Museum, Copyright Maine Discovery Museum.